Olivier Dobberkau sent a few rants today via Twitter, stating that the roadmap of TYPO3 Phoenix is so hard to find (here) and that it's so hard finding information about how to contribute (here). I think that the former doesn't make sense and the latter is not true.
First of all, it is – in an Open Source Project – hard, if not impossible, to set up a roadmap which is likely to be kept. The whole development effort relies, even if there's a budget from the TYPO3 Association, mostly on voluntary work. The members of the FLOW3 / Phoenix team are very committed and enthusiastic, but at the same time it can easily happen that they are not available due to customer projects, diploma theses and so on. Volunteers also tend to prefer working on topics which are currently relevant to their own work and what is most fun to do. How could we foresee that and put it into a roadmap?
Other projects are in the same situation. Try finding the Drupal roadmap or that of Joomla. Wordpress only mentions the code names of its future releases. Projects like Symfony don't even try to publish a roadmap in the first place.
To put it bluntly: I am convinced that publishing a roadmap for an Open Source product which promises certain features until certain dates is neither serious nor realistic. That doesn't mean we have no high-level goals. But they are moving targets and we discuss and document them during our meetings and at TYPO3 Forge.
The team and I personally would love to communicate a lot more about TYPO3 Phoenix. We would also love to have a salaried designer, a shared office, a marketing person and two more fully employed developers. There's no website about TYPO3 Phoenix online at the moment because the new website is not ready yet. There is an awful lot of reasons why certain things just don't happen. All a big misery, is it?
I don't see it that negative though. I could wish for a lot more, especially more time to spend, but I know that those involved doing their best possible and are flexible enough to adjust to the ever-changing requirements. We always focus on the next step in front of us and regularly exchange ideas about the overall strategy. And we'll continue with that until someone can show (and walk with us) a better path.
What's the best way for you to stay in touch with plans for the product? Do you need an outlook further than the next version?
Mattes | 09.02.2012
Just a suggestion:
Talk about the (in some perceptions) delayed progress:
People might argue.
Don't talk about it:
People WILL argue.
I prefer the first option, since it saves a lot of hassle.
If I got Daniel right, there is someone taking over the outside communication, so everything will be better soon.
Sad sidenote:
TYPO3 just lost a 300k budget to ez Publish (wtf?!?) due to the issues mentioned during the last week.
Daniel Hinderink | 07.02.2012
Hi Rob, folks,
frankly I don't believe the T3A is in the position to impose a strict production plan on the new CMS or FLOW3. Firstly, it is against the agile principle the team has employed all along and will most certainly not drop. (Neither will the community provide a comprehensive set of user stories for that matter.)
Thus, if within a future budget application round the EAB demands milestones and all that entails, it might find itself without an applicant. Consequently I would not overestimate the attraction of those funds. Particularly as FLOW3 receives increasing attention from clients.
Secondly, I think it is wise to remain aware that this funding construction with a non-profit organisation at it's heart is still a rather singular situation, if not an experiment. No other F/OSS project that I am aware of combines funding from member fees and events to fuel a variety of different goals, ranging from two (or even three!) development efforts and the regular functions of any commercial venture. Feel free to correct me, if you have found a comparable project. That said, I would even doubt there are many F/OSS projects entering the market today with major relevance that are independent of some commercial company. Go figure.
Granted, there is certainly massive room for improvement. (and the people to do that have just been elected). However, there is also some legacy to protect and assets to develop, as Patrick and Mattes have pointed out above (while Robert received another flogging).
Other than that, I hope everyone tries to give Rob a break. Just try to step into his boots for a second and you will find he can hardly feel a shortage of pressure.
To Robert: the Toasters said it all, circa 1997: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSo-_TavE1U
Over and Out,
d
Lorenz | 03.02.2012
Thanks for this post and the more "official" follow-up on news.typo3.org. A lot has been said and I second the opinion that the team must communicate more often than it did before. I belong to these people who read your scrum meeting protocols and sometimes browse through Gerrit and Forge to get an idea of what's happening behind the scenes. But I don't think that you can expect than from more than some dozens of people...
When we're talking about communication, I think we need to make a difference between communication for the community and communication for decision makers. The people who work all day long with TYPO3 and have been knowing it for years might be interested in more than marketing buzz but have some - in my opinion valid - questions about what's going on with TYPO3. E.g. I wonder if "Phoenix 1.0" will be *the* successor of TYPO3 v4 im terms of having the same feature set. Or what it means for the development of Phoenix when Robert announces to become more of a freelance programmer this year.
The thing that makes me patient is that you guys are very trustworthy... I believe it when you say that it was worth throwing the Phoenix backend away and start from scratch. I would also buy a fridge from Sebastian if I were living on the north pole - because he is so passionate about the things he does.
That's why I think that you shouldn't delegate the communication for the community to marketing guys. There is no one better to present the progress and innovation than the guys who put their passion into it.
Yet when it comes down to reach decision makers with marketing buzz and celebrating "each line of code as 1a improvement" (as Mattes stated in a German thread about the same topic), it makes perfect sense to let someone else filter out the marketable news of the things you're doing.
I'm looking forward to Phoenix but until then I think my CMS of choice still does a great job. Take your time - but let us know what you're doing :-).
Felix Kopp | 03.02.2012
FLOW3 preamble - I think that we are in a very happy situation with the framework. FLOW3 is used for productive systems and the industry adapts the framework. This way an additional momentum might be gained though the industry. Wait and see where this leads.
But what about the enterprise CMS? There are several paths to integrate FLOW3 with TYPO3 (I try to forgot the manifesto for a minute). If we are stuck (and I think or don't know better that phoenix is), we need to think about different approaches aloud.
These might be (crude, rough and general - consume with care but feedback):
Use FLOW3 product parallel to TYPO3. Create a new CMS/Backend on top of FLOW3 and migrate few (extbase/fluid) Extensions over to phoenix.
-> Wait for layout, wait for technology, reinvent every button.
Use FLOW3 product parallel to TYPO3. Create a "old" CMS/Backend on top of FLOW3 looking mostly the same as Version 4. Either code-wise rewritten or reuse nasty HTML and structure (thinking about the management view here). Afterward migrate few (extbase/fluid) Extensions over to phoenix.
-> Use layout, curse about code and JS-technology but progress.
Bundle FLOW3 framework with TYPO3 releases right away. Call it phoenix. Create compatibility layer (80-90% of current TYPO3 Version 4) to make execution of "old" extension possible. Execute packages via FLOW3. Execute extbase/fluid either via FLOW3 (no idea if realistic) or via FLOW3.
-> Best of both world - loads of duplicated code, but realistic to migrate one module after another.
To create a new CMS/Backend, a new look and a new logic is as we followed over the years seems to be not realistic.
Robert Lemke | 03.02.2012
Hey all – thanks again for your comments, keep them coming! Today I have discussed several ideas with the Steering Committee for improving communication and leadership. We're working on a concept for that, I'll keep you posted.
Then, yesterday after your initial comments, Karsten started compiling a detailed report about the progress of Phoenix and FLOW3 in January and we plan to publish similar reports every month now. Thanks a lot to Karsten and I hope you get some new insights from the first issue:
http://news.typo3.org/news/article/heads-first-into-a-new-year-january-2012/
Patrick | 03.02.2012
Hi Mattes,
yes of course (arghh) - wanted to write about all three roles "developer/pm/pr" but have reduced it to the wrong two... so PM ist the role I meant.
Mattes | 03.02.2012
Hey Patrick,
I really really really hope you meant to say:
"And roadmaps, timelines, documentation, ... all this stuff is PROJECTMANAGEMENT and should be done by another person/team"
Patrick | 03.02.2012
Hi there,
this is not my complete opinion to this topic - but a few very important aspects (for me):
Hey - FLOW3 is such a stunning product and I love every line of code there. I think it's worth all the time we have waited for the releases and to be honest - I would want to wait another time if the product get's even better. This is our base we have to work with in the next - let's say - 10 years. And I hear the voices claiming "why have the inventor of this framework not thought about this or that in the beginning".
I would love to have Phoenix right now and want to work with it and want to sell it to my customers... but the time is not ripe for this new peace of stunning CMS-History and therefore we (all) have to wait. FLOW3 is not just a part of Phoenix - it is "sold" as a separate product and this was communicated all the time. So Phoenix is the next step of course but please give them time to develop a stunning CMS based on it.
And besides of that I have learned an important thing during my agency lead in the last past years. Developer want to develop and marketeers should do the marketing. And roadmaps, timelines, documentation, ... all this stuff ist marketing and should be done by another person/team.
From my point of view we should pay attention to the association that marketing is as important as the product itself. So there should be a person/team in the future as "v5 product manager" - who cares about communication, roadmaps (if we need them), contact between the community and the developer. Something like that.
I know that not every information is that easy to achieve - but if you search for it - you will find much of it, so there are Mailinglists, Blogpostings, Videos from events, Scrum protocols, commit-messages and last but not least events where you can ask your questions directly. Not that much (or in this form someone want it) - but many of the information is already there.
I think - everything can be improved - no question. And this posting helps with that a lot I guess. But do not forget - Open Source means (bdesides of many other things) to take over responsibility for what you want to change. If it's to slow - offer your help to improve the develeopment speed - this could be ideas, manpower, contacts, testing, communication, money, convince people, be patience, be grateful, whatever...
Mattes | 03.02.2012
@Tolliev
I totally agree.
But we have to make a very distinct seperation between things that "should be" and things that "have to be".
My perspective in the T3 Community has always been 80% marketeer/20% dev.
Things like the whole certification process were my initial ideas during T3BOARD in Kitzbühel 2004.
I have been warning about a situation like this with other people like Sander for ages which resulted in the proposal to ban me from all TYPO3 events (not kidding).
Still:
I fully agree with your demand for more transparency.
But unless you have either sponsored this particular project or are in a position where you have an actual contract clearly stating the demand for regular reports there is nothing to complain about.
I am pretty sure that Rob and Karsten do not violate contracts so obviously the contract does not state any need for reports.
So if they both do not see the need to improve the outside communication it's totally ok for them not to release ANY info on the current status.
If this harms the TYPO3 project as a whole is also none of their concerns.
They get paid to code Phoenix - end of story.
This is what their contract forces them to do.
I get your point, believe me.
But we have to talk business for a while here.
The business side is pretty clear and straightforward.
Everything happens according to contract.
Maybe the contract needs improvement then.
Yes, some things went wrong.
I suggest to take these as learnings and improve them in the future.
Mattes | 03.02.2012
@"Guest" (although I have an idea who you might be ;-))
This depends.
If you signed a contract that did not explicitely state the need for reports basically it's your own fault.
I agree that one might expect something like this to happen by default, but still... contracts are contracts.
As a paying member I personally would demand such a thing, but this does not neccessarily reflect everyones opinion (as the past has shown multiple times).
So how you handle the situation is up to each individual.
Options range from simply stopping your support by leaving the T3A over demanding more transparency to helping out yourself by helping with the communication.
Personally I have chosen option 3, let's see where it takes us.
Guest | 03.02.2012
"- Community != T3A member
- Check YOUR parts of the sponsorship contract
- Complain if you're in a position to do so
- Give Rob and Karsten a break"
I agree on the first poin, Mattes. So I have to blame the Association to not setting up a professional communication structure around the Phoenix project ?
IMHO its the worst thing to beat about the bush for quite a time and raise expectations and then have the attitute "it's done when it's done". You clearly have to see that us as paying Association members support TYPO3 on the long-run and want a good and clear communication to the users and devs working with TYPO3. That was not the case for Phoenix in 2011 at all ! Please fix that so TYPO3's image in general isn't getting harmed.
Felix Kopp | 03.02.2012
Just a thought:
The releases should be terminated, the functionality might be rough / an outline. I happens quite often within TYPO3 release and other software that functionality, complete work packages are postponed or sometimes even stripped if not ready in time for the release. That's what product cycles are for. And products are planned and not feature sets.
For users a repository checkout is a unbearable hurdle. They use a download page and need easy setup instructions to make up their mind. But to distribute installer packages first releases with versions must be regularly availiable (talking phoenix, not FLOW3 here). From my perspective a lot of the necessary communication focuses on a specific release. A per release Changelog based on the daily phoenix sprint meeting notes might already be sufficient.
How the work and man power is focused is a different question. I personally think that all further features in FLOW3 should only be implemented if just in time needed by a phoenix feature in the current development. Now the transformation to a top-down perspective must be taken.
Jochen | 02.02.2012
As I said before, we do have a community manager who could provide reports to the community. Since the community mgr is in regular contact with all the project managers, it shouldn't be a problem to compile the recent achievements into a report and publish it. Wouldn't take away a big deal of development time and improve communication significantly.
I fully agree that FLOW3 is a good product which we need for Phoenix. However, we should not forget that FLOW3 is just a tool that we need for Phoenix. Now, with the release of FLOW3 1.1 being around the corner (I hope), we should have all the tools together to finally focus solely on the development of Phoenix.
The annual report for 2010 stated "the Google Summer of Code project brought i18n and l10n support to the framework". This was 18 months ago and the current FLOW3 release is still lacking the feature.
I would even go as far and suggest halting the development of FLOW3 once 1.1 is released until Phoenix has a stable release and can be used in production environments.
Robert Lemke | 02.02.2012
Tolleiv,
I agree that the expectation was too high and the Phoenix team raised a lot of that. I think it was partly due to the fact that we, ourselves, felt and hope that we were pretty close – but we also preached the choir making buzz, because people love to hear good news. More conservative communication might be the key.
As for the reports: yes, even monthly reports should be possible. Karsten, sitting next to me, is right now collecting all details for a summary of January. Maybe a start. But we did publish quarterly reports through the general TYPO3 Association quarterly report.
Finally: I do think that we report honestly from the respective point in time. Two months before Christmas last year it was reasonable to have a Phoenix sprint release for Christmas. Then almost all development stalled in the UI department and I was pretty busy with the FLOW3 1.0 after-release communication and development for 1.1.
Tolleiv | 02.02.2012
Hi Robert - isn't it natural that people are upset when expectations aren't met? The buzz made for v5 during the last 6 years (or at least 4 years) always gave everyone the impression that you're "close" and that things go quickly once the framework is up and running. That buzz came from the v5/Phoenix team and was picked up (blindly) by many others. Conferences and DevDays dedicated lot's of time to v5 and everyone was eager to get something. Even if the communication during the last year was more realistic (v5 => Phoenix), the expectations were too high already. And from today's perspective we're confronted with irregular releases and hard to find information. It's clear that people get impatient and the only way out is clear, regular and honest communication. And I agree with Jochen that quarterly "reports" aren't too much for to ask for - are they?
Cheers
Dan | 02.02.2012
You both are right; it's an Open Source project with lots of volunteers, so the conditions of a roadmap will probably never complied with in time. We all know that. And it's fair and appropriate to remind everyone about this fact. But lots of people are waiting desperately for every new development stage of Phoenix. Not at least because it's the main topic on *every* TYPO3 event. So Olivier Dobberkau is, as usually, trying to ask questions from the customer point of view: What is up with the project? Why is it late? Why is the roadmap outdated? Helpfull questions. No reason to be offended, since you guys are the one to stand up and explain the reason for this (or ask for help, or demand better resources, or realize that some tasks simly can't be fullfilled properly, etc), who else could do it?
In my humble opinion it is a common nuisance lately to make hasty promises about release dates. “[TYPO3 product xyz] will be available within the next [small number] month”. These statements are roadmaps by itself (so even if TYPO3 association would decide to drop roadmaps the would always still exists). And then they are not fullfilled. Not for days, but month actually. The statement can be heard on a conference and seen on the homepage. Very »in your face«. Notes about the current development and reasons for delay are rather hidden. Of course. Since it takes so freakin much time to communicate stuff. I have had the very same situation recently in another sphere. When you are focused so much in a working group and often talk to other guys involed you have the feeling that you talked so much about the current progress that “everybody has to know about it by now”. But this is not true. Despite of all wiki entries, mailinglists and open team meetings, regular users (not involed into the project as much as other) do not hear about this. They still have the roadmap in mind. So a reminder from outside can help.
Yepp, it's a tough topic with no perfect way to go. But open, frequent, fair and friendly communication (a characteristic of the TYPO3 community) is one key.
François | 02.02.2012
I'm pretty much of the same mind as Georg. To the "outside world" (i.e. people not being closely involved with the Phoenix project) it seems like very little is happening, even if I perfectly understand the relation between FLOW3 and Phoenix and why recent FLOW3 developments are fully meaningful for Phoenix. It's more a question of perception, especially since a while ago you started with code sprints and active communication. I understand that there are reasons why this stopped, but it also stopped without communication about it.
Obviously any time you spend communicating is time you don't spend developing Phoenix. I face the same conundrum with the documentation, people awaiting eagerly the switch to reStructured Text. However there's a balance to strike between spending too much time on communication and staying mum. At the end of the day, it's really the only reproach I would have: not enough communication. But I know it's not easy...
Georg Ringer | 02.02.2012
Hi,
thanks for the fast answer. You say "you can't to both at the same time". Everybody knows such things! But nobody knows that you do those important CMS tasks (no matter if they are inside FLOW3 or Phoenix). What about a small article at typo3.org like "Hey guys, we just finished the localization" with some additional information how it generally works (is it like in v4 world with default language + overlay") ...
We (as v4 developer, v4 agency, v4 world) get some troubles with customers and others asking "how does it look like with v5) and all those information would help a lot
Robert Lemke | 02.02.2012
Thanks for your comment, Georg.
I think that the challenge is that FLOW3 is perceived as a separate product and not as a necessity for the CMS. The last few months we spent working mostly working on features like localization (multi-language support), speed improvements, frontend form support, plugin support and improved HTTP support (for cache headers, REST services etc). These are all features of FLOW3 and, from an outside view, put Phoenix development on a hold. But in reality these are all features which are very high on the wish list of future Phoenix users. That's why we're working on them.
The reasons why there's no new Phoenix sprint out for months now is that for various reasons (Sebastian writing his diploma thesis, switch from ExtJS to SproutCore (now called Amber) there wasn't much progress in the UI part. After the release of FLOW3 1.1 I'll focus on Phoenix UI again – I just can't do both at the same time (not with focus, that is).
Georg Ringer | 02.02.2012
Hi Robert,
thanks for your posting.
I guess the one big "problem" people have is: They are waiting for TYPO3 Phoenix since a very long time. FLOW3 as a framework certainly is a great and awesome thing but many people don't need a framework like FLOW3 but would like to have the new CMS.
Many of us are financing the development of FLOW3 and especially TYPO3 Phoenix and they just want to see results.
I fully understand that developing something new from the beginning is hard, time consuming, challenging and you need to start some times/many times over and over again but isn't that why there is some agile development, having regular sprints with a result?
http://forge.typo3.org/projects/typo3-v5-distribution-base/roadmap tells me that sprint 7 is 9 months late.
I know that there are those regular meetings but for all who don't attend and don't watch the revisions at git, it seems that there is nothing getting done.